Friday, February 02, 2007
An E-mail Discussion about Islam in Europe
From: Me
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:16pm
To: S
A lot about Iran but not alot really about Europe in this segment.
Marseille is set to be Europe's first Muslim city, and most whites there seem to react with reactionary racism. They don't like it, so I don't really agree with this statement:
> "Europeans are losing their own loyalties and their
> own self-confidence," he said. "They have no respect for
> their own culture." Europeans had "surrendered" on every
> issue with regard to Islam in a mood of "self-abasement,"
> "political correctness" and "multi-culturalism,"
The French are fighting Islam's influence all the freaking time. Thats why they fight the veil in schools and also why the facist guy (LePen) who runs for President every time gets support from more than 1/3 of the country.
My opinion is that there are very few French who are aiding the process of integrating Muslims into their society which creates tension that can explode as it did in 2005 with the burning car wriots. This fact makes the following an interesting observation:
> The only pertinent question regarding Europe's
> future would be, "Will it be an Islamized Europe or
> Europeanized Islam?"
If France would take a few more steps toward racial and religious tolerance, I think they could help to Europeanize Islam in such a way that European Muslims would come into their own and dominate the world's opinion of Islam.
I base this mainly on the fact that the Muslim immigrants to Europe I have met are very similar to Central American immigrants to the US. They come from mostly poor environments with very little freedoms, and when given the choice, none of them really ever want to go back. They want to stay in Europe and have a European life. If Europe could show them that true Religious freedom and tolerance is part of what makes life in a democracy so valuable, I think that would help to start a new pillar of Islamic culture in Europe and take a lot of the focus off the militant poor in the Middle East and Asia.
The attitude might actually start to trickle backwards to those regions and the West wouldn't be as much of a target as an environment to emulate in the eyes of Muslims around the world.
I don't think that there is a need to "fight" Islam in Europe. The Europeanization of Islam will happen eventually due to a combination of economic dominance and the fact that freedom is inherintly superior when it comes down to an individual making a choice.
I don't personally believe that there is enough power and propaganda in militant Islam to retain the children of European immigrants. They would have to choose to remain in a religious bubble that demands that they be outcasts from regular European society when that same society offers so many advantages to their own.
Its not a commonly voiced belief, but I do believe that Europeans could speed the process of Europeanization up for all immigrants by taking a few lessons from the US. When it comes to a citizen's personal understanding of political correctness and tolerance as it relates to respecting other people's personal freedoms, the US is superior. In my opinion, the only European countries that come close to a US understanding of these concepts are the UK and Ireland and they could still use some catching up.
I could talk about this for a long time. I'll stop now and continue if your friend has more questions for me.
. . .The article that started the discussion follows. . .
From: C
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:08:50 -0600
To: S
Subject: Article by Prof. Bernard Lewis
It would be interesting to learn what your friends in Marsaille, France have to say about this article. I have no idea the accuracy of the statements. The email was sent by my friend, R, who stays in touch with Palestinian Christians that they met when touring Israel last year. Hmmmmm _____
From: G
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:02 AM
To: C
Subject: Hitler meant it, so do the radical Muslims!
Islam could soon be the dominant force in a Europe which, in the name of political correctness, has abdicated the battle for cultural and religious control, Prof. Bernard Lewis, the world-renowned Middle Eastern and Islamic scholar, said on Sunday.
The Muslims "seem to be about to take over Europe," Lewis said at a special briefing with the editorial staff of The Jerusalem Post. Asked what this meant for the continent's Jews, he responded, "The outlook for the Jewish communities of Europe is dim." Soon, he warned, the only pertinent question regarding Europe's future would be, "Will it be an Islamized Europe orEuropeanized Islam?" The growing sway of Islam in Europe was of particular concern given the rising support within the Islamic world for extremist and terrorist movements, said Lewis.
Lewis, whose numerous books include the recent What Went Wrong?: The ClashBetween Islam and Modernity in the Middle East, and The Crisis of Islam:Holy War and Unholy Terror, would set no timetable for this drastic shift in Europe, instead focusing on the process, which he said would be assisted by"immigration and democracy." Instead of fighting the threat, he elaborated, Europeans had given up.
"Europeans are losing their own loyalties and their own self-confidence," he said. "They have no respect for their own culture." Europeans had"surrendered" on every issue with regard to Islam in a mood of "self-abasement," "political correctness" and "multi-culturalism," said Lewis, who was born in London to middle-class Jewish parents but has longlived in the United States.
The threat of extremist Islam goes far beyond Europe, Lewis stressed,turning to the potential impact of Iran going nuclear under its currentregime.
The Cold War philosophy of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD), which prevented the former Soviet Union and the United States from using the nuclear weapons they had targeted at each other, would not apply to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Iran, said Lewis.
"For him, Mutual Assured Destruction is not a deterrent, it is an inducement," said Lewis of Ahmadinejad. "We know already that they [Iran'sruling ayatollahs] do not give a damn about killing their own people ingreat numbers. We have seen it again and again. If they kill large numbers of their own people, they are doing them a favor. They are giving them a quick, free pass to heaven. I find all that very alarming," said Lewis.
. . .More followed about Iran and not so much about Europe. . .
(Arutz Sheva,IsraelNationalNews.com, January 19, 2007)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 12:16pm
To: S
A lot about Iran but not alot really about Europe in this segment.
Marseille is set to be Europe's first Muslim city, and most whites there seem to react with reactionary racism. They don't like it, so I don't really agree with this statement:
> "Europeans are losing their own loyalties and their
> own self-confidence," he said. "They have no respect for
> their own culture." Europeans had "surrendered" on every
> issue with regard to Islam in a mood of "self-abasement,"
> "political correctness" and "multi-culturalism,"
The French are fighting Islam's influence all the freaking time. Thats why they fight the veil in schools and also why the facist guy (LePen) who runs for President every time gets support from more than 1/3 of the country.
My opinion is that there are very few French who are aiding the process of integrating Muslims into their society which creates tension that can explode as it did in 2005 with the burning car wriots. This fact makes the following an interesting observation:
> The only pertinent question regarding Europe's
> future would be, "Will it be an Islamized Europe or
> Europeanized Islam?"
If France would take a few more steps toward racial and religious tolerance, I think they could help to Europeanize Islam in such a way that European Muslims would come into their own and dominate the world's opinion of Islam.
I base this mainly on the fact that the Muslim immigrants to Europe I have met are very similar to Central American immigrants to the US. They come from mostly poor environments with very little freedoms, and when given the choice, none of them really ever want to go back. They want to stay in Europe and have a European life. If Europe could show them that true Religious freedom and tolerance is part of what makes life in a democracy so valuable, I think that would help to start a new pillar of Islamic culture in Europe and take a lot of the focus off the militant poor in the Middle East and Asia.
The attitude might actually start to trickle backwards to those regions and the West wouldn't be as much of a target as an environment to emulate in the eyes of Muslims around the world.
I don't think that there is a need to "fight" Islam in Europe. The Europeanization of Islam will happen eventually due to a combination of economic dominance and the fact that freedom is inherintly superior when it comes down to an individual making a choice.
I don't personally believe that there is enough power and propaganda in militant Islam to retain the children of European immigrants. They would have to choose to remain in a religious bubble that demands that they be outcasts from regular European society when that same society offers so many advantages to their own.
Its not a commonly voiced belief, but I do believe that Europeans could speed the process of Europeanization up for all immigrants by taking a few lessons from the US. When it comes to a citizen's personal understanding of political correctness and tolerance as it relates to respecting other people's personal freedoms, the US is superior. In my opinion, the only European countries that come close to a US understanding of these concepts are the UK and Ireland and they could still use some catching up.
I could talk about this for a long time. I'll stop now and continue if your friend has more questions for me.
. . .The article that started the discussion follows. . .
From: C
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 10:08:50 -0600
To: S
Subject: Article by Prof. Bernard Lewis
It would be interesting to learn what your friends in Marsaille, France have to say about this article. I have no idea the accuracy of the statements. The email was sent by my friend, R, who stays in touch with Palestinian Christians that they met when touring Israel last year. Hmmmmm _____
From: G
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2007 8:02 AM
To: C
Subject: Hitler meant it, so do the radical Muslims!
Islam could soon be the dominant force in a Europe which, in the name of political correctness, has abdicated the battle for cultural and religious control, Prof. Bernard Lewis, the world-renowned Middle Eastern and Islamic scholar, said on Sunday.
The Muslims "seem to be about to take over Europe," Lewis said at a special briefing with the editorial staff of The Jerusalem Post. Asked what this meant for the continent's Jews, he responded, "The outlook for the Jewish communities of Europe is dim." Soon, he warned, the only pertinent question regarding Europe's future would be, "Will it be an Islamized Europe orEuropeanized Islam?" The growing sway of Islam in Europe was of particular concern given the rising support within the Islamic world for extremist and terrorist movements, said Lewis.
Lewis, whose numerous books include the recent What Went Wrong?: The ClashBetween Islam and Modernity in the Middle East, and The Crisis of Islam:Holy War and Unholy Terror, would set no timetable for this drastic shift in Europe, instead focusing on the process, which he said would be assisted by"immigration and democracy." Instead of fighting the threat, he elaborated, Europeans had given up.
"Europeans are losing their own loyalties and their own self-confidence," he said. "They have no respect for their own culture." Europeans had"surrendered" on every issue with regard to Islam in a mood of "self-abasement," "political correctness" and "multi-culturalism," said Lewis, who was born in London to middle-class Jewish parents but has longlived in the United States.
The threat of extremist Islam goes far beyond Europe, Lewis stressed,turning to the potential impact of Iran going nuclear under its currentregime.
The Cold War philosophy of Mutual Assured Destruction (MAD), which prevented the former Soviet Union and the United States from using the nuclear weapons they had targeted at each other, would not apply to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's Iran, said Lewis.
"For him, Mutual Assured Destruction is not a deterrent, it is an inducement," said Lewis of Ahmadinejad. "We know already that they [Iran'sruling ayatollahs] do not give a damn about killing their own people ingreat numbers. We have seen it again and again. If they kill large numbers of their own people, they are doing them a favor. They are giving them a quick, free pass to heaven. I find all that very alarming," said Lewis.
. . .More followed about Iran and not so much about Europe. . .
(Arutz Sheva,IsraelNationalNews.com, January 19, 2007)
